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The Temptation to Debate

I recently read a post at Mormon Matters titled, The Nature of God and Bible Bashing Sharing.  I think this is an excellent example of yet another individual who has realized that debate and argumentation, and trying to prove doctrinal positions with biblical proof-texts are ineffective means of communication.  The author, Adam F, writes:

Debate over which belief is Biblical will not achieve much in the way understanding or respect.

If one believes in the Trinity, derives motivation from that doctrine to live his religion more fully, and if I get the same from believing in a Mormon concept of God as I do, why does it matter that we do not agree? Does one of the many Christian conceptualizations of God inspire more visits “to the fatherless and widows in their affliction,” or keep one “unspotted from the world?”

I think one of the keys to this is giving up on the idea of debating for the purpose of trying to win. Understanding each other is much more important, especially on a site like this. There is a lot we can learn from each other, and through my association with a Catholic friend I have come to respect and understand better Christians who believe differently about God than I do.

As I attempted to type out a response, I was brought back to earlier musings about why it is that debate and argument are so prevalent and almost inevitable.  Like Michael Corleone, I sometimes want to say: “Just when I thought I was out… they pull me back in.”  The black hole of ‘apologetics’ draws everything in its path, ultimately squeezing out all light and crushing its subjects into nothingness.

In the above post, the author offers these questions:

What do you believe about God?
Where does your belief come from?
What scripture(s) or teachings best describe you belief?
In what ways are your beliefs about God manifested in your life?
Which is more important: the personal characteristics of God, or what God looks like?

One of the things I’ve come to realize is the immense draw that debate has online (or off-line).  Even topics or posts which are not intended as debate end up being pulled into debate.  For example, there will be those who see these questions as simply another challenge and will try to argue that their beliefs in God are superior to another’s.  They will argue that their beliefs come from a more legitimate source and have greater reliability and validity than another.

I agree that proof-texting is usually unpersuasive, and a more helpful practice would be to identify key passages which shape one’s beliefs to assist in understanding.  Here too, some will be quick to discredit the interpretation as wrong using any of the available methods of interpretation.

I agree that all too often the nexus between belief and praxis is ignored.  Religious devotion and faith are manifested in the life of the practitioner and yet this is often an overlooked area of inquiry.  One can seek to disprove another’s characterization of God, or they can seek to understand the inspiration and motivation which arises from that belief.  All too often people are quick to point out that they personally do not accept the beliefs of another without even attempting to appreciate how those beliefs are cherished by others and seen as beautiful by others.  This doesn’t mean one has to accept another’s beliefs by any means, but to a believer they are probably beautiful, and the sincere attempt to understand this is the key.  Here too is an area which can be pulled into debate with some arguing that certain beliefs hamper a true understanding of God, which goes in the opposite direction.

The author asks the question of which “ideas” concerning God are more “important”.  I agree that we need to explore new questions similar to this one.  This one will depend on the person and what we mean by important: important in what way?  Often one can easily say that everything about God we could possibly know is important.  Here too, debate creeps back in and people will be tempted to argue that others are “less concerned” about knowing God, etc., but that we are “more concerned.”

I completely agree that all too often people are trying to win points or prove someone false.  Often this is done for personal educational purposes and in many cases people can learn new things from engaging in debate and can practice their argumentation skills.  However, in the context of inter-faith dialogue rarely does this have a positive effect on those of other faiths.  Rather, it pushes others away, increases misunderstanding, perpetuates stereotypes and victimology.

Still, I often wonder why there is such a strong pull towards debate and argumentation.  While I fully agree that good questions are critical in our conversations, as the author points out, the spirit of understanding is central.  Any question, even one intended to enhance understanding can by hijacked for debate and argumentation.  We need to ask ourselves, am I asking this question for ammunition I can use at a later time in separate debate with someone else, or do I really care about understanding how this person sees the world in order to better understand and love my neighbor?

While I wish to end on that note, I must sadly admit that this kind of attitude also gets drawn back into debate with those claiming we should never give up or concede calling those who believe in heretical views to repentance, and others claiming that this simply isn’t effective.  I’ve heard those who lament that inter-faith dialogue merely subverts evangelism/missionary work and that it is better to hurt someone to save them (just like surgery is painful but necessary to save), than to gain someone’s love and respect just to have them end up in hell (salvation is better than understanding), with each side marshaling bible verses and personal experiences to demonstrate that their way is the best way.  I can only add my personal experiences to those of Adam F.  He writes:

I think one of the keys to this is giving up on the idea of debating for the purpose of trying to win. Understanding each other is much more important, especially on a site like this. There is a lot we can learn from each other, and through my association with a Catholic friend I have come to respect and understand better Christians who believe differently about God than I do.

This too has been my experience.  Others have understood my beliefs much more accurately and richly through dialogue than through debate. In addition, I’ve learned more about my own faith and the faith of others though respectful dialogue than would have ever been possible in a debate.

Yet the temptation to debate and win the argument is ever so strong, it is always there, with an open invitation and the siren call: “Victory is yours for the taking.”

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  1. May 5, 2008 at 6:41 am | #1

    Belief and praxis are inseparable.

  2. Tim
    May 5, 2008 at 9:07 am | #2

    Do you think debate ever has the potential to draw us into deeper understanding?

    For example
    Conversation 1
    Person A: I believe X,Y, Z
    Person B: Oh, that’s interesting
    (both go on their way)

    Conversation 2
    Person A: I believe X,Y, Z
    Person B: How do you deal with A,B,C in light of X, Y, Z. The two are mutually exclusive
    Person A: Oh, I don’t pay any attention to A, B, C
    Person B: Well how do you ignore A,B,C in light of D
    . . . .

    I’m not at all arguing (ha) that debate is the most effective or only form of communication but it has its place. Debate at one point was a key teaching technique.

  3. May 5, 2008 at 11:01 am | #3

    As to your first example of “oh that’s interesting” and both end discussion, I don’t think that is enhancing understanding, but this isn’t what I mean by dialogue. As to your second example, where you make the statement, “The two are mutually exclusive” I think this is based on your point of view as an outsider. It is easy to look at the faith of another and conclude her beliefs are full of contradictions and wonder “How could anyone ever believe such a thing?” I don’t think this is an effective approach, but certainly if a person keeps at this for a long long time and has patience and is speaking with someone who also has patience that this could lead to a deeper understanding. Plus, when you say “How do you ignore X Y Z” this is a loaded confrontational kind of statement assuming the person is in fact ignoring something when in fact they probably simply have a different “interpretation” of X Y Z than you do. Plus, while in the end you personally may learn much from this interchange, the question is whether you have alienated the other side in the process. Now many times I think people don’t care about this because they can just move on to the next person. In other words, they sharpen their skills and leave a lot of collateral damage behind in the process. Also, I think this approach might be premised in the belief that “If I can just get this person to see that their beliefs are contradictory then they might discard those beliefs.” But I think this also fails to appreciate how people form their religious beliefs and also the role that experience plays in beliefs.

    I think saying something like “What in your view would be a teaching that would contradict A, B, C?” Then you would discover more quickly and rapidly the boundaries of what this believer might accept as a contradiction. Rather than playing battleship, try to see the whole board first. However, when I think about it, I think this whole idea of trying argue contradictions or even discover contradictions is a flawed approach when discussing religious differences among two or more faith traditions. I see this happen all the time. Mormons online make assumptions about what is contradictory and so do Evangelicals and Catholics, but all of these groups hold views that everyone thinks are contradictory and when you add non-believers into the mix then a non-believer would think all believers have contradictions. So, if you want to go that route then I would say yes it can lead to understanding, but I think in actual practice very often this doesn’t happen, and there are unfortunate side-effects.

    Debate and apologetics can teach people things, I agree. In my experience I’ve learned a lot from these forms of communication, and one of the things I’ve learned time and time again is that if you really want to influence someone, and these are the tools you want to use, then you are going to be very ineffective. They have their place, but they also have their limits.

  4. May 5, 2008 at 12:25 pm | #4

    aquinas – Nice write-up — and thanks for continuing this important topic with all your additional thoughts.

    “I often wonder why there is such a strong pull towards debate”

    For many, I think this pull is almost impossible to avoid, and most probably do not want to. I suppose that there are many who are more concerned with winning and rather than understanding. Perhaps winning a debate helps to solidify one’s own beliefs–adding validation.

    Re: Tim – “the potential to draw us into deeper understanding” – I think debate can be useful for this purpose, if it is done carefully with the right spirit of love and patience rather than zeal and pride.

  5. May 20, 2008 at 2:30 pm | #5

    Very interesting post.

    Appoligetics seems to be a necessary part of learning. The author wrote in his post :

    “What do you believe about God?
    Where does your belief come from?
    What scripture(s) or teachings best describe you belief?
    In what ways are your beliefs about God manifested in your life?
    Which is more important: the personal characteristics of God, or what God looks like?”

    I suggest that we will never stop arguing about these items because their are more powerful subterranean forces that drive peoples positions on these points, IMHO.

    I have posted on these forces here: The Purpose of Mysticism.

    Thanks,
    David

  6. May 20, 2008 at 10:58 pm | #6

    David, I really appreciate your comments; they’ve sparked some additional thoughts. I agree that apologetics can be a form of learning. Whether it is necessary or not in order for learning to take place, I’m not convinced at present moment. Especially when our goal isn’t to advance our personal learning, but rather to influence others in significant ways, I question whether apologetics can really provide us with the means to achieve such goals. Apologetics has such a hold, such a grip on religious communities, and as a result, I think people simply lack the technologies to relate to others of a different faith effectively.

    You are absolutely right that many times our beliefs are formed by our experiences and relationships. I believe that in many cases this temptation to debate can be traced to unfortunate or negative experiences with those of another faith. We may have been accosted or felt attacked by a person of a different faith or even had a good friend turn on us because of religious differences. We may have been mocked or ridiculed because of our religious beliefs and by those who claim to be influenced by the teachings of Christ no less. I’m convinced that these experiences fuel our responses more deeply and profoundly than any doctrinal belief or theological posture ever could.

    I recall some words I read long ago:

    When dealing with people, let us remember we are not dealing with creatures of logic. We are dealing with creatures of emotion, creatures bustling with prejudices and motivated by pride and vanity. – Dale Carnegie

    Certainly we do our best clothe our positions with biblical language and support them with theological and philosophical constructs, that’s the respectable thing to do. However, in some cases I suspect our opinions about those of another faith were set long before we encountered our later developed doctrinal justifications for why such a person must be wrong. This is why I think indulging in the temptation to debate those of another faith only perpetuates this cycle of religious animosity. We simply continue fuel those emotions that manifest themselves in a renewed vigor and zeal to prove the other side wrong. “An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind.”

  7. May 23, 2008 at 8:27 am | #7

    It’s official. I love aquinas. (Whoever you are, I really respect what you have to say AND the way you say it).

  8. May 25, 2008 at 7:30 pm | #8

    I appreciate the comment Clean Cut.

  9. May 30, 2008 at 9:31 am | #9

    Very nice post and thank you for your excellent comments on my post on the same topic.

    I think it all comes down to pride. It is our nature to want to be the best and prove that we’re right. It takes a humble person to do what you suggest and look at someone else’s experiences and beliefs from their perspective rather than our own. But if we want to call ourselves Christians and follow Jesus’ teachings, that is exactly what we are asked, commanded rather, to do by the Lord himself.

  1. May 30, 2008 at 9:43 am | #1

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